Why Your Client Avatar Isn’t Working with Shaunda Head

Episode 9 of the Self-Made Mamas Podcast

“When we really focus on those material aspects of our ideal client, then it really also does a number to us when what we’re doing isn’t working. We say, ‘Well, I know what she drives, I know what she wears. I know where she gets her clothes from. How come no one is responding to my content?’ Then we attack ourselves for not doing it right when no, that’s not it. If we’re going to look at your client, let’s really look at her.”

 

Today on the podcast, I’m chatting with Shaunda Head. Shaunda is a brand strategist and digital marketer who helps women-owned small businesses brand themselves and attract their dream clients. She does this by helping everybody bring out their own uniqueness and then share that with the people they want to attract.

 

 

Melissa: Welcome, Shaunda. Would you mind introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about your life, about your business, how you got here to do what you do today?

 

Shaunda: Yes, absolutely. Thank you for having me. As you said, I’m a brand strategist and digital marketer and I live in Atlanta, Georgia. I really love to help women discover how they can stand out in their marketplace in businesses or industries that we either assume are oversaturated, or maybe rightfully so are. I love to help women find the messaging and marketing that works for them, sounds like them, and calls in more of the dream clients who resonate with exactly who they are. As for how I got here, I’m a classically trained graphic designer. I went to school for graphic design, came out and started working in marketing departments as a graphic designer. When that happens, they basically say, “Yeah, you’re here to design but you’re also going to learn this.” That’s when I started learning and really digging into marketing and business development. When I went full-time with my business in 2017, I really wanted to focus on doing the same work but doing it for the people I wanted to do it for. I started off with designing and consulting, dipping into some strategy work. Over the past three or four years, I really niched down and honed into brand and marketing strategy and building out marketing funnels. Everything works in alignment. The way that I look at everything is that your brand isn’t just your logo or your website. Your brand is all the pieces of your business. I look at your business as an entire brand system. I like to just dig in there, get my hands dirty, and tell you what I see and how I think we can align it more to who you are so you can make sure you are finding the people that are attached to you. There are people out there who can’t do their work unless you do yours first. They’re kind of attached to your vision and you’re attached to theirs.

 

M: I love that.

 

S: Thanks! Yeah, that’s what I love to do.

 

M: You are a mom as well in addition to doing all this work, so what are you juggling in addition to this full-time business?

 

S: Oh, my goodness. Well, my daughter is 2, going on 35. She is a firecracker. Also, I’m a full-time caregiver for my grandmother. Right now, she’s 96. She’ll be 97 in a few months and she has Alzheimer’s. I tell people that any day of the week, my house is a bunch of chaos. There’s a lot of things going on. I definitely understand the need to simplify and find systems that work for you, find the clarity that works for you. You don’t have to do all this extra work in your business because outside of your business, there are tons of other things going on that, as women, we’re just having to deal with on a daily basis. My life is proof of that, honey.

 

M: That’s incredible. Kids are one thing, but as we were talking about before we got online, it’s a whole different ball game when you’re caregiving in a different capacity.

 

S: Yeah. I remember when I was pregnant, so many people asked me, “Are you ready for this? How are you going to do with a newborn baby?” Not to put down motherhood at all, because I hadn’t stepped into it yet, but I was more afraid of granny and a newborn baby at the same time. How is that going to happen, you know what I mean? We’ve made it work, though. Anyone who cares for elderly family members can probably understand. When you get a process or routine, and it’s the same with children, it’s more helpful for them. It’s also easier on you, on your brain space, but the days that are hard are the days when the routine goes off the rails. Then you realize, I was just coasting along and today is going to be a different type of day. There are some unpredictable days there, but I’m still thankful my grandmother’s here and my daughter gets to grow up in a home with her. On top of that, I struggled a lot with infertility issues before I had my daughter. Whatever it is that I’m here to do with the two of them, I’m game for it because we’ve been through a lot.

 

M: Absolutely. You’re amazing.

 

 

Sharing Your Stories

 

Melissa: When it comes to your business, your brand messaging, and your unique list, which you have shared a little bit of yours with us, what do you want people to know? What do you want people to know about sharing what makes them, them?

 

Shaunda: What I want people to know is that it’s such an important thing to do. Not only is it important, but it’s also going to be the easiest thing for you to do as well. For a lot of people, we went into business for ourselves, we think a lot about expenses, personal and professional development, trying to get better at things, looking for a coach to help with things, trying to get content and everything done. One area where you can always dig in and mine for gold is your personal stories. Everything that makes you, you. That’s almost the only differentiating factor that we have from others. We’re all out here doing the same work for the same types of people. We, all, of course, have our different angles, but in marketing, we call it a USP or unique selling position. People find a lot of times that thing is actually more inherent in us than it is an angle we had to find. It has more to do with our special sauce, and what we come to the table with. I really want people to look more at themselves. We hear so much about finding your ideal client, what they want, what they wear, what kind of Starbucks drink they’ll drink, what car they drive, right? Is your ideal client avatar really helping you, though? It helps more to know about their mindset and their stage and their journey and all those things. Also, to me, that’s only 50% of your business. The other 50% is you and I don’t think we put as much focus on ourselves until we’re years and years into it and we’re burnt out. We’re exhausted and we’ve been doing business in a way that didn’t feel good to us. We have a business model that doesn’t feel good to us. We work with clients that aren’t the right client for us, and then we think maybe we should take a look. I think the best thing is actually right now, let’s take a look right now, today. Let’s really put some focus on you. Take some of the focus you’ve been putting on finding your ideal client and who they are and put some of that on you. That will really resonate and speak volumes as to the people that you’re calling in.

 

M: Absolutely. I really like what you said about the ideal client avatar, whatever you want to call it. I remember coming up in online business five years ago and being taught by all the seven and eight-figure online business owners that you create your ideal client avatar, and as you said, you need to know what their Starbucks drink is, and give them a name, what kind of neighbourhood they live in. I also worked in graphic design when I first started in brand identity and brand development and that was some of the stuff we had to pull out of clients. We needed to know demographic information. As an online business owner, when you’re the personality behind your brand, the psychographic is really all you need to focus on. That took me a few years to figure out. My brand is all about moms, it’s called Self-Made Mama. I was like, “I serve moms!” Knowing that I serve moms with young kids is actually not enough to connect with marketing. It has to be more than that. I think you’re spot on when you start to share yourself and share your stories. I have two little ones and I’m a caregiver in a different capacity to my brother. Sharing those things brings people out who have been sort of lurking in the woodwork. As you said, they’re attached to you and you don’t even know until you start to share. It really is magic.

 

S: You have no idea and you don’t know why people are following you, or why they like certain things. When we really focus on those material aspects of our ideal client, then it really also does a number to us when what we’re doing isn’t working. We say, “Well, I know what she drives, I know what she wears. I know where she gets her clothes from. How come no one is responding to my content?” Then we attack ourselves for not doing it right when no, that’s not it. If we’re going to look at your client, let’s really look at her. You work with moms of small kids. That’s awesome. That’s also millions and millions of people, right? We can go deeper. We can think about what stage they are in because moms are different. Just because you’re a mom, you’re still at different stages of motherhood. You may be in the stage where you’re just seeing everything with rose-coloured glasses, so that affects the content you want to see. Or you may be a mom who really, wants the truth, hardcore and authentic. Do you know what I’m saying? There are so many different facets. People also have different objections, those are the things you need to know. If we’re really going to look at your ideal client, some of the things that we’re taught to do in avatar work are not only not deep enough, but when it’s time to do your marketing we have to do some other exercises to get there. Why don’t we start with those exercises? When you do those, then you start to see maybe that’s not even who you really want to work with. I love that you said that about stories and how you connect because people know when they’re following a business owner or someone who has something to sell, but there’s a different kind of transparency that happens when they share their stories. When their story resonates with you, maybe your story, maybe someone they know the story of, or it may just be something refreshing that they wanted to hear or see more of. Behind the scenes, that’s really what people want to see. They want to know that you’re a mom who doesn’t have it all together every day just like them. They don’t want to see the glorious stuff sometimes, they want to see that someone feels them and understands. They want to feel seen. When you use stories, your stories, then people start to feel seen. The other half of that is now you can use the stories of your ideal clients. Let’s use their stories instead. You start to do that, then it changes the game and your marketing. That changes the game in your content. That’s the shift I see with my clients. They come in the door doing things one way because this is how we were taught. Not only is this how we were taught, but this may also be how we did things in our corporate life before we moved into our own work. This may be stuff we’ve seen work for other people who are similar in our industry, and that’s lovely, but the reason those people are winning is they are being themselves and doing their work. Let’s find out what your work is like. What does that look like? That’s why those people are winning, not because they did this strategy or that strategy. What’s the strategy that’s going to work for you? You’re not going to know that until you really get deep into this process of who you are, your brand, who you’re here to serve, and what you have to say to them. How that differs from everyone else, instead of trying to do something because you saw someone else do it. No, not at all.

 

M: That’s so important. This comes up with my coaching clients a lot. Often they’ll see me do something and they’ll message me and say, “I saw you did this. How is that going for you? I want to do that too.” 9 times out of 10 unless it really is a fail, I say, “No. I don’t want you to do what I do, I want you to think how I think. Here’s why I did this, here’s why I took those steps, here’s why I priced it that way. Here’s why I included XYZ and here’s why I’m talking about it in this way. How can you apply that to you and your business?” People do this all the time, and I think this comes again from the early years of online business when there weren’t that many people doing it. There were probably a few hundred people out there in the world doing it and I remember when Jenna Kutcher was the be-all and end-all of Instagram. Most people in online business back then, when she was coming up, have now graduated far beyond her content, but she was a perfect example of someone that people just tried to emulate. You’re a designer, so you’ll get it. I cannot tell you how many websites I have seen with millennial pink and Oswald font. Exactly the same. I understand the pull to do that—you see this person and they’re killing it, they’re making so much money, and they are doing all the things that you want to do, but that’s not how it works. You can’t just copy what they do and plop it onto yourself.

 

S: That’s what everyone tries, and honestly, it’s just something you have to go through when you’re starting out. You want to learn from this person and this person, and then you figure the next thing is doing what they’re doing. I think we’ve all been there. Then we reach a point where clearly something is not working here. I just love that, “I don’t want you to do what I do. I want you to think how I think.” That is going to be different for every person. Everyone is coming in with a different foundation, a different face. I love that you said that. It is so funny how you can look at something and instantly see everyone’s using this font, and then everyone’s using this next font. Everyone wants to go handwritten, and then everyone wants the next thing. I think it’s scary for people to take the risk of leaning all the way into who they are. “What if people don’t like me? What if people don’t resonate with me? What if it doesn’t work?” Business, brand building, it’s all a huge experiment. I don’t think people like to hear that but it’s the truth. It’s what you learn as you continue to move through, you’ll find what works for you or for your people. Then what we also don’t do enough is to rehash. When you find what works for you and your brand, find a way to do that more. We tend to move on to the next thing, the next shiny object. What you’re doing as you’re building your brand, as you’re moving through business, you’re creating your own milestones. Pay attention to those because that data is going to be very useful to you. Really, really useful. A lot of times we just look so much outside of ourselves.

 

 

Finding Your Brand Voice

 

Melissa: Let’s talk about that because really this comes down to trusting yourself. We are looking to everybody else for the blueprint. All of our marketing uses those words, I’ve used those words and I’m sure you have, too. We use that because people are looking for that. They’re looking for the process or the system they can copy. The formula for success, the ingredients to this money potion. The reality is that you can’t get them from somebody else. You have to trust yourself. In my business, and I’ve seen this in my clients as well, there’s a turning point where you stop trying out everybody else’s strategies and you quiet down and think about what it is that you want, what you want to do, and what you want to get out of doing that. All of a sudden you gain this clarity and you can do what’s right for you, and only for you and your business, and it doesn’t matter what other people are doing. When you do that, you will probably find that your revenue at least doubles because you’re actually taking aligned action. You’re not just doing a bunch of shit all over the place that doesn’t make sense. How can we start that process? In a perfect world, you wouldn’t have to screw around for three years before figuring out how to trust yourself. What can we do to speed that up?

 

Shaunda: That’s the thing, you have to be willing to try. We’re so afraid to fall flat on our face, whether it be publicly or losing money or whatever, but you hear all the time everything is data. I always start with the branding process, and for me, branding is not just a design thing. It’s very focused on you. I want to start with building your brand platform because the way industries are right now, the way internet traffic is now ever since COVID, it’s more than doubled. You’re really having to “compete” with everyone. No one can see you out there in that sea if you’re not standing on some kind of platform. Just like a politician has a platform, your brand should have a platform. Where I always like to start is figuring out the message that you’re here to tell people. What are your core values? You’re not going to want to work with clients who are not aligned with your values, and vice versa, so let’s get that in order. Let’s really talk about your voice. If you feel you don’t have a brand voice, let’s find it. If you do, let’s refine it. Let’s get it to where people can hear you. If you’re not saying something that’s different from the next person, then they’re going to go with and trust who they’ve always gone with and trusted. If you’re similar to anyone, then you’ve already kind of lost the game because they either may have been out here longer or have more money to do more advertising or anything like that. Let’s find what your voice is and let’s make sure it’s sprinkled across everything. That to me is something that people don’t pay as much attention to. We hire a copywriter, we hire a designer, we hire all these people, and I’m not shitting on that because those are all things that I do. What I’m saying is, where does your brand voice fall in that? A lot of times people have work done for them, but they say, “It just doesn’t sound like me, though.” That’s a really, really key thing. In my experience, people get attached to you, your stories, all those things. If you’re very vanilla or whatever it is that your brand is, your brand can still be kind of outspoken in whatever your views are, even if your views aren’t these big polarizing views, people still need to hear you. We need to dig into your brand voice. Figure out what that is and where we can kind of put your brand voice. We need to figure out what your core values are because we need to say ‘em loud and say ‘em proud. We need to figure out what your message is and make sure it’s very clear and direct. You haven’t even touched offers or funnels yet. This is all content work, but your message is your first funnel. Once your message gets clear, and people understand who they’re talking to, now they will pay attention and you will immediately see a shift. That shift is more an identity factor more so than anything. My coach said that to us recently and I knew that was the word for what it is. It’s not a mindset shift, it’s an identity shift, and it’s seeing who you are. You need to be clear about who you are and the people you want to work with need to be clear about who you are, as well. That’s something that really doesn’t happen as much as it should. People don’t pay attention to that at all. If people don’t know who you are, what you stand for, how you work, they’re just not going to be interested. You really have to get them to understand that.

 

M: It’s not an overnight thing either, especially the way Instagram in particular works. Now, in social media, we have this expectation that if we share one opinion, all of a sudden, you are going to blow up or all these people are going to come flocking to us because we’ve done that. In my experience, I’ve never gone viral. I have been slugging away at this I don’t know how many years now. I will probably never go viral because I’m just not that polarizing, but I make a lot of money on my Instagram because like I said, I share my opinions on my Instagram all the time. I talk about my stories. I have a lot of opinions about online business and the way it’s done and the ethics behind it. The ways it’s intrusive, not inclusive, and just unethical in general, the ways that we leverage sales psychology in the wrong ways, and things like that. I talk about that a lot and I don’t have millions of followers. I have around 12k followers, and people respond so enthusiastically when I share those little tidbits. I don’t have my pitchfork out, I’m not coming for anybody. Maybe Rachel Hollis, but nobody else. I don’t really have my pitchfork out ever. I’ll share things about people getting featured in Yahoo and Yahoo Finance, top 10 lists, whatever, and just so you know, this is a paid service. I’ll show screenshots from these people reaching out to me to try and get me to pay for it. I share little things like those looks behind the scenes, and I share my opinion on it. That wins clients, that turns people from followers into paying customers because they think, “This person has a value. This person has an opinion and I agree.” Then they want to give you money because they want to work with you. You may lose some people, you may piss some people off. I’ve seen people get really riled up about baby pacifiers and things that are not polarizing at all, especially in the mom space. You’re going to get those people who most likely weren’t going to buy from you. What you’re going to do is turn the people who have been watching and lurking and thinking about it into legitimate buyers. You’re going to have a transactional relationship with them, and you’re going to be able to actually help them.

 

S: Yeah and some people may not even agree with you, but they know that you’re always going to give the truth. You don’t have to have millions of followers. It’s literally just about showing up as yourself wherever you are, and if you guys are with it, come on. If not, fine. If you would rather chill and lurk and watch, okay, I’m here, you know where to find me. You’re absolutely 100% right. These are the little things that make all the difference when people say you have to tell your stories, and you have to be yourself and all these things. It doesn’t mean you have to do all of them at once, and it doesn’t mean that you have to go 100% into it either. You’ll notice these little things will shift the needle, and just pay attention to the needle. When something shifts, what did you do? What did you say that was authentically you and your thoughts? That’s it, and then just see what happens, honestly.

 

M: Yeah. Also, I’m more of a creative, writer type of person, but I have a few clients that are more science-brained people. They’re RNs and things like that, and they’re like, “What do you mean, the little things?” Their brains just don’t work like that. They can save your life, but when it comes to that kind of intuitive information gathering, it’s just not how they operate. If you’re that kind of person, and you’re wondering how you’re going to move this needle, go to the people that have already paid you and ask them why they hired you. They’re not going to say it’s because you are the best brand designer in the entire world. That’s not it. They’re going to tell you something about you that they were drawn to. That will give you a kind of breadcrumb trail to follow.

 

S: Yes, that’s so good to ask other people. We have no idea why people like us. We think it’s because we put up a professional pic online or something. We think we know, and it’s something totally random. Something you may have said two years ago, girl, and you just really have no idea. That’s why I just don’t even try to go viral. Just show up. Whatever you’re doing, wherever you are, whatever platform you’re on, just show up as yourself. Some people are science-minded or more logic-based, and things like that. For some people, those are the only people they want to hear from. There are people who just want you to show up and be whoever it is that you are. If you are totally logic and science-based, and you do it in a different way, are you even going all-in on it? We have a tendency not to fully go there or just be ourselves. I don’t care what kind of person you are, how quirky you are. There are people that want exactly that. The key is just to show up, they can find you. If you don’t show up first, they can’t find you.

 

M: It’s true. Your LinkedIn profile picture is not going to do the job, my friends.

 

S: No. Not when you want to sit on your own merits with your own work. There’s a time and place for that.

 

 

Mindset Shifts

 

Shaunda: It’s such a shift when people leave the corporate or team space, maybe not even fully leave, but they start to build their side gig or side hustle. It’s a totally different game. If you’re operating an online business, you have seconds to catch people’s attention. There are a lot of things that are just totally different and I noticed a lot of my clients are coming from that space and the transition shakes you up. It’s a lot and sometimes it lasts for a long time. That’s why some people don’t even get fully into their business and they shrink. They pull back and go back to a nine to five. Now, if that’s for you, then it’s for you. Nine to five jobs are very, very good business loans. 

 

Melissa: I love that!

 

S: Don’t hate on having to stay in your job a bit longer, okay? Don’t hate on that. Or if your genius really shines in that environment, then that’s where you need to be. If you are a person who has felt stifled in that environment, and you’ve kind of dabbled and want to think about building your own brand or business, whether it’s full time or a side gig, then just know there’s going to be a lot of friction in that transition. Expect it, make plans for it. I hate when people get down about certain things happening, and I’m like, “No, it’s like a checklist, all these random things are going to happen to you. You ain’t the first. You won’t be the last. It has nothing to do with you personally. These are the types of friction and tension that you’re going to have to address as you move through this.” I think it’s also helpful for people to know this is what’s going on and what you’re going to be faced with. Just plan for it. There are things you can do if you plan for it, but a lot of times people get sidetracked or thrown off when these things appear. One of those big things is the transition to an online business or operating fully online. When you’re coming from a corporate space or a nine to five, it can be really jarring. It is a thing, it does happen. Listen to people like us because when you’re in those environments, you have to be a certain personality to really feel good and whole in that space, when you’re a part of that kind of team. If you step into something where you’re a leader now, and it’s completely separate, and it’s online, you have to step into different versions of yourself, and you have to be okay with putting that out there for the work. When you reach that space where you’re fully okay with being yourself and who you are, whatever that may look like online and in business, that is literally what changes the game for you in your business. Sometimes there’s so much resistance to it that it takes a while. That resistance, that shedding of our old life or who we were in that team or nine to five environment, is not necessarily who you’re going to be in business for yourself.

 

M: When you’re at the point where your online business is changing your life, when you’re looking back like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe I ever made so little at my job,” you’re a different person. By the time you get to that point, you’ve become a different person, not in a bad way. You may still have the same friends, the same relationships, but the transformation you have to go through to be able to do this work successfully is unreal. I love what you said about it not being for everybody because it’s not. My husband is a serviceman, he’s dedicated his entire adult life to serving Canada, and I asked him to do a reel with me a couple of nights ago. It’s a couple’s one where you both jump in the air and do little positions in the air. Everyone I’ve seen has gone almost viral. When I asked if he wanted to do it with me, he just stared at me. I said, “I think it’ll go viral!” and he goes, “Will it go viral if I jump off a bridge because I’m embarrassed after?” That’s what he said to me. You don’t have to be so freaking dramatic about it, I just wanted you to do a video with me for the internet! He would literally rather die than make an Instagram reel or TikTok. It’s just not his personality. If that’s you, if you don’t want to put yourself out there, that’s okay. There are so many things that you can do even if you want to be self-employed. If you want to do this, though, if you want to build a personality-based brand and hopefully make a ton of money on the internet, then everything Shaunda shared today is the direction that you need to go and it’s going to be so crucial to your success.

 

S: Yes. There are some roadblocks. You really have to dig into different pieces of yourself. It doesn’t stop, even as you continue to level up there’ll be a new piece you have to dig into. If you’re not happy and pumped on videos, if you feel like you’re going to barf before a video, I actually understand that. A lot of people may not even think that about me, but I don’t love videos. I don’t love being in front of the camera. If it’s not your ministry, there are a lot of different ways for you to do a lot of different things. You don’t have to do what someone else has done, but if you’re going in business for yourself, it is going to be a stretch. You do need to stretch yourself, but you don’t have to do things that really aren’t your strength. 

 

M: No. You have to find a way to share your message effectively and that looks different for everybody. I’m not a live video person, and everyone says you’ve got to do prioritize Instagram Lives, you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to do that. I don’t have time for that shit right now. It’s not a priority, and I don’t love it. I consume audio. My guess is that so does my audience, and I like to produce audio content and Instagram content that’s evergreen. That’s more of my pace, but that may not necessarily be right for someone else.

 

S: Exactly. People just need to know it’s okay. You can find it, but you can’t find your lane if you don’t start trying things.

 

M: I agree.

 

S: You’ve got to try.

 

M: I feel like we could talk about this for another hour! Thank you so much for your time.

 

S: You’re welcome, and thank you so much for having me. I’ve loved it.

 

Shaunda Head is a brand strategist, digital marketer, and founder of SHH Creative. Follow her on Instagram at @shhcreativellc and check out her website.

 

If you want an intro to working with Shaunda, check out her free training at brandyourdifferences.com. Learn to brand, market, and monetize everything unique about you to build a fulfilled brand.

 

 

Action Items

 

A. Throw out the old idea of an ideal client avatar based around material aspects like what they wear, what they drive, their favourite Starbucks drink, etc.

1. 1. You need to know what your ideal client’s mindset is and where they’re at in their stage of life and journey right now in order for you to truly serve them. Psychographic information will serve you on a deeper level than demographic information.
   2. This information about your client is only 50% of your business. The other 50% is you. Focus on that, too. Make sure the clients you’re working with are the right clients for you.

 

B. Your unique selling position as a business or brand isn’t hard to find—it’s you.

1. 1. Everything that makes you, you is the differentiating factor you have from others.
   2. One area you can always mine for gold is your personal stories, so begin to share those and it will bring out the people who are attached to you as a brand.

 

C. Get deep into the process of who you are, what your brand is, who you’re here to serve, what you have to say to them, and how that differs from everyone else.

1. 1. Don’t try and do things in your business because you saw someone else doing them.
   2. Business and brand building is an experiment and you need to find the strategy that works for you.

 

D. Start to figure out the message you’re here to tell people.

1. 1. What are your core values? You’re not going to want to work with clients who aren’t aligned with your values, and vice versa.
   2. Your brand voice. If you don’t have one, let’s find it. If you do, let’s refine it, get it to where people can hear you, and sprinkle it across everything you’re putting out.
   3. If you’re not saying something different from the next person, they’re going to go with who they’ve always gone with. If you’re the same as everyone else, you’ve already lost the game.

 

E. As you make these shifts in your business and brand, pay close attention to your data, engagement, revenue, etc. If the needle is moving, what triggered it?

1. 1. If you’re stuck and you’re not sure how to move the needle, try going to the people who have already paid you and ask why they hired you. When they tell you what they were drawn to about you, that will give you somewhere to start.

 

Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of the Self-Made Mamas Podcast. You can find more information about working with us at theselfmademama.com or connect with us on Instagram at @selfmademama_. I can’t wait to chat.